What Does Verizon Have Against GPS In BlackBerrys?

gquaglia
#1. July 23rd, 2007, at 9:03 PM.

One word, MONEY. Why give customers free GPS when you can offer your own program and charge for it. Gouging the customer is the Verizon way, after all.

Andy Beal
#2. July 23rd, 2007, at 10:01 PM.

I’d love to know the answer to that question. If I have to pay extra per month, I may consider it, but not having access at all is just crazy.

hellno
#3. July 23rd, 2007, at 10:08 PM.

“Developed by the United States Department of Defense, it is officially named NAVSTAR GPS (Contrary to popular belief, NAVSTAR is not an acronym, but simply a name given by Mr. John Walsh, a key decision maker when it came to the budget for the GPS program). The satellite constellation is managed by the United States Air Force 50th Space Wing. The cost of maintaining the system is approximately US$750 million per year, including the replacement of aging satellites, and research and development. Despite this fact, GPS is free for civilian use as a public good.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

and

“The BlackBerry 8830 smartphone houses a proprietary, autonomous GPS receiver. This
receiver is able to calculate the handheld’s location relying solely on GPS
satellites with no input from cellular towers. While the device does have assisted
GPS, i.e. A-GPS capability, it houses a “full” GPS system similar in nature
to GPS systems used by GPS-only car kits and mobile devices. This is designed to
be accessible by second- and third-party applications such as BlackBerry Maps, Google
Maps, and TeleNav. Such programs do need a wireless data signal to download mapping
information, though they can figure out where the BlackBerry is in terms of latitude
and longitude with just the GPS signal.

The BlackBerry 8830 smartphone as released by Verizon has had this “full”
GPS capability disabled at a software level. Verizon has indicated that they plan
to release their own proprietary GPS mapping solution at a later time; possibly
VZ Navigator. AT&T and T-Mobile have both taken similar routes with their 8800
series handhelds; locking out GPS access for 3rd party programs and only enabling
access to the built-in receiver to the TeleNav program that they sell themselves.

If you would like Verizon to enable GPS functionality on the BlackBerry 8830, I
suggest you contact them and advise them as much.

Thank you again for contacting us, Dennis. If you have any questions or comments,
feel free to contact us.

Sincerely,

Adam
BlackBerry Customer Support
Research In Motion Limited”
http://jkontherun.blogs.com/jkontherun/2007/07/verizon-gets-me.html

Now just like verizon crippling other functions and app’s (bluetooth is only one well known one) verizon feels it can SCREW its customers by crippling functions native to the BB8830. I don’t like that and I sure will not accept RIM and it’s BB’s getting a black eye when verizon turns it around and blames them like verizon turned around the bluetooth crippling on moto. verizon’s games are complete BS and something again needs to be done to give consumers back the freedom and functions they paid for. verizon has proven yet again much more than a slap on the wrist is needed to deal with verizon and their anti-consumer behavior.

hellno
#4. July 23rd, 2007, at 10:12 PM.

Robb,

Thanks for the story. A educated consumer is a smart consumer. Sure think everyone including myself can use more consumer education, especially when it come to the wireless industry.

Jay
#5. July 23rd, 2007, at 11:49 PM.

That is interesting, except there is one part that is completely inacturate, and that is that the 8800 sold by ATT and T-Mobile is NOT locked. The GPS functionality of that phone is fully accesable to other apps i.e. berry 411, Google Maps etc. and a few more, so he may be right about all the rest but negative on that one. I have no yet seen ATT or T- Mobile lock any standerd features on phones they sell, hoever having had several Verizon phones with software locks I an attest to them doing this as standard practice.

Big D
#6. July 24th, 2007, at 1:36 AM.

I’m so irritated by this I am canceling my VZW contract. They just don’t get it. Hey! Idiots!! Listen to your customers!

I’ll be quite happy to pay $175 to get out of the contract…… Jerks.

Thought
#7. July 24th, 2007, at 9:37 AM.

One has to assume the reason is simply a desire for greater revenue; in the case of GPS, to make sure that consumers pay Verizon for that feature.

Of course, even with that they are blowing it with the BB 8830, because they have yet to release their own GPS feature for that device. My guess is that it simply isn’t ready yet, not that they have any benefit to waiting; many people will sign up for it regardless.

Verizon has a great network, but they really do screw the consumer when it comes to these added features. If I were them, I’d worry, because others carriers are also investing in infrastructure improvement, and one has to believe that other carriers will catch up, at least to some extent. That, coupled with the fact that VZW is not on GSM, the de facto world wide standard. At some point you have to feel that VZW will have to transition to the same network system that the vast majority of the world uses, and that will be a hugely costly endeavor.

gquaglia
#9. July 24th, 2007, at 12:07 PM.

My confusion comes from the “Why” on Verizon’s behalf. They must know that their customers want GPS, the Pearl, and the Curve

They don’t care thats why. They are big and some will accept whatever Verizon gives them without question.

hellno
#10. July 24th, 2007, at 12:25 PM.

Robb,

That is my big question too of just about everything verizon does, “WHY”?

Lets face it cdma is younger and technically better than GSM technology. In North America cdma had a huge head start over GSM. IF verizon really thinks “it’s the network” well then give customers the freedom to use the network, we will gladly pay for a great network, but we will NOT pay to be screwed by a service provider blocking, crippling, forcing proprietary app’s, and worse the lies to try and cover up what verizon is doing. Moto didn’t deserve the black eye and RIM sure doesn’t deserve any black eye, RIM designed open, autonomous GPS to use the free autonomous GPS that every US citizen has access to for FREE.

Sure wish verizon would wake up one day and realize they can make a ton of money just by providing “the network” without taking customers for a ride. By screwing customers verizon has allowed GSM to gain a major foot hold in North America. This culture is hardly just verizon though qualcomm is the most arrogant and greedy company there is, so much so there are many top tier wireless device makers which have stepped out of the cdma business just to stay away from qualcomm.

This anti-consumer culture is hurting verizon, verizon customers, device manufactures, cdma in North America, and the entire wireless industry. IF verizon treated customers with respect and openness, there would be little reason for North American consumers to look to GSM. Sadly verizon in many ways is it’s own worst enemy.

hellno
#11. July 24th, 2007, at 12:28 PM.

Saying that do consumers have to force verizon into proper behavior? Or is it just easier to move on to a GSM service provider which has respect, openness, just about the same technology and level of service avaliable.

I go with the later GSM…. Not enough time in the day to fight a company which is really there making money for providing a service

DP
#12. July 24th, 2007, at 4:59 PM.

Below is the e-mail i just received regarding the GPS capability. Pretty pathetic.

“Thank you for your interest in using your device to its fullest capabilities. Please be advised that Verizon Wireless is committed to providing the very latest in products and services. Verizon Wireless does not provide support for the BlackBerry Maps application or 3rd party software that would be required to make full use of the 8830’s GPS capabilities. As a result, the 8830’s GPS functionality has not been enabled so that we are able to provide a standardized level of functionality and support for our advanced devices. We are unable to state if or when additional GPS functionality will be enabled on the Verizon Wireless 8830. We understand and apologize for any frustration regarding this but we are only able to provide information regarding products or services that we are currently offering. We are unable to disclose any unconfirmed information because it would be subject to change and could raise expectations that may not be met.”

hellno
#13. July 24th, 2007, at 5:24 PM.

There is NO excuse that verizon can give for crippling the BB8830. The FUD above is enough for most to understand verizon is working against it’s customers, and has been since the verizon merge. NYNEX and Bell Atlantic (after that) didn’t pull this kind of crap. Why anyone with any sense would continue paying verizon a service provider, to provide service while also blocking and crippling service and applications which the phone manufacture designs into the phone sure needs to THINK before allowing verizon to continue to SCREW and then lie about it. verizon needs to THINK about how a service provider should and is expected to treat consumers. It sure doesn’t need to be this way.

“GPS is free for civilian use as a public good.”

“The BlackBerry 8830 smartphone as released by Verizon has had this “full”
GPS capability disabled at a software level.”

“The BlackBerry 8830 smartphone houses a proprietary, autonomous GPS receiver. This receiver is able to calculate the handheld’s location relying solely on GPS
satellites with no input from cellular towers.”

Brandy
#14. July 24th, 2007, at 6:23 PM.

DP,
I received the same exact response from Verizon –word for word– when I contacted them about the GPS in my 8830 and its current disabled state. Right now, I seem to be gathering a letter trail of regurgitated responses/excuses from VZW, for future references.

Thought
#15. July 24th, 2007, at 8:27 PM.

The only way VZW will be forced to change is when this impacts their bottom line. The only way for consumers to speak is to leave them in sufficient numbers to wake them up. I don’t know if that’s going to happen, but sadly that is what it will take.

On a side note, RIM should use its clout to pressure VZW to open up some of these features on their BB devices at least. If Apple can make demands of ATT, surely RIM can make some more modest demands of VZW.

Stinsonddog
#16. July 25th, 2007, at 7:40 AM.

Oh how amuzing, and yet ATT and TM DO NOT cripple the GPS. They hide the BBMaps icon but that is easy to get back. I have all sorts of GPS apps on my 8800.

JB
#17. July 25th, 2007, at 1:03 PM.

DP,

Turn that note right around on them…feel free to cut and paste.

“Thank you for your interest in maintaining me as your customer. Please be advised that I am interested in using the very latest in technology, products and services. I specifically purcashed the 8830 for this reason. Verizon Wireless does not provide support for the BlackBerry Maps application or 3rd party software that make full use of the 8830’s GPS capabilities as other vendors have. In fact, the 8830’s GPS functionality has been disabled rendering these applications useless anyway. Because you have disabled this feature, I am unable to use a function that I have paid for in the Blackberry 8830. Therefore, I will be switching to a vendor that will provide these applications and services. We understand and apologize for any frustration regarding this but we are only able to provide our money to vendors who meet our needs. You are unwilling to do this at this time. Therefore, you have lowered my expectations of the services that you can provide.”

REV
#18. July 25th, 2007, at 1:06 PM.

Like Robb, I’m a big fan of Vzw, even thought I’ll be the first to admit that their BB strategy sucks.

I’m half-thinking of rolling over to AT&T just so when Vzw tries to talk me out of it, I can tell them “I’ll happily come back when your BB offerings are more competitive than AT&T.”

My Vzw contract expires in May, so I have until then to trash my credit rating so I can get an iPhone with a pay-as-you-go plan.

REV
#20. July 25th, 2007, at 1:37 PM.

Well, let’s see what happens with the iPhone between now and May, when the furor dies down and everyone who “gotta have it” already has it. Perhaps we’ll see pay-as-you-go open to all? Corporate discounts available?

Of course, I’d rather just see a Vzw Curve with camera, WiFi and uncrippled GPS!

Thought
#21. July 25th, 2007, at 8:28 PM.

REV: according to reports, if you enter 999-99-9999 as your social security number during the credit check, you will fail and then be able to get a pay as you go plan.

REV
#22. July 25th, 2007, at 10:50 PM.

Interesting. I would think that would work, but stranger things have happened, I suppose. Thanks for the tip.

REV
#23. July 25th, 2007, at 10:51 PM.

wouldn’t think that would work, that is.

Thought
#24. July 25th, 2007, at 10:57 PM.

EV: apparently that tactic has been successfully used by TUAW, The Unofficial Apple Weblog
Link

Tanner Waldo
#26. July 29th, 2007, at 1:16 PM.

Rogers in Canada is notorious for pulling this kind of crap. They disable MP3 ringtones so that you have to buy their ringtones, and lock out the music player so that you hvae to use the Rogers Media Player.

They didn’t touch the GPS on the Blackberry 8800, though you have to subcribe to the Rogers GPS service if you want things like turn by turn directions. Just using maps is free though.

Verizon loses!

jj
#28. August 2nd, 2007, at 11:43 AM.

Dear ,

Thank you for your recent e mail to Mr. Dennis Strigl, who has asked me to respond to you on his behalf.

Verizon Wireless’ advertisements do not represent the autonomous GPS receiver and you may be referring to and Ad by the manufacturer. There may be disclaimers that not all carriers will sell the unit with the GPS system active.

In the 4th quarter of 2007, Verizon Wireless is expecting to launch VZNavigator in many of our PDA devices. The software to utilize this program would be available to our customers at no cost.

If you have further questions, please feel free to contact me directly.

Steve Schwed
Verizon Wireless
HQ Executive Relations Supervisor
e-mail Stephen.Schwed@verizonwireless.com

Fred
#29. August 3rd, 2007, at 4:05 PM.

Dear Steve:

GET A CLUE.

I was in the process of placing an order for the 8830 with your network. After reading this info and verifying it after calling your help lines and web enabled chat. I will go elsewhere.

Effectivly your company BROKE the phone. Wether or your product to repair the phone is free is meaningless. What else did you break that I have not yet learned about?

Mumser
#30. August 5th, 2007, at 1:47 AM.

I also am considering the 8830 with Verizon; however, I am seriously
considering not renewing my contract and that of all my family due to this
issue of breaking the GPS functionality. The published position of Verizon they
are concerned of potential viruses and need to make sure it works on their
network seems rather disingenuous to me, as they will offer free software
to fix the problem. However, there is no mention that there will be not cost
to use the GPS functionality with the free S/W.

David Burns
#31. August 8th, 2007, at 9:30 AM.

I too find this extremely frustrating. Granted, I have GPS mapping in my car, but having previously used a BB7100i from Nextel that DOES have enabled GPS, I find I really miss it on my 8830. Adding to the frustration, the sales person in the store told me it does not even HAVE GPS (which I know to be not true) and the BB Maps application that was on the store sample “must have been installed by a customer, it won’t be on your phone”. Well, guess what, they hand my my new phone and RIGHT THERE ON THE SCREEN is BB Maps! Aargh! Buy a 7130 or 8830 from Sprint, and GPS is enabled and BB Maps works awesome. Buy the same device from Verizon (either one), and it’s disabled.

This “security” BS is just that, BS. They say BB Maps is a “3rd party” app, when it comes from RIM and is included on every 8830 that Verizon sells? What???

I too would be very interested in pursuing some action to “encourage” Verizon to remove their disabling of the capability. I am upgrading to the new device software 4.2.2.148 that just came out from Verizon last week, and I see that one of the changes is that the SIM capability can now be unlocked to allow non-Verizon SIMs to be used overseas. I am quit sure this change in policy was a result of so many complaints and lost customers.

Perhaps if there’s a groundswell of user protest (ala the campaign to send bags of nuts to CBS in an effort to save the Jericho TV series, which WORKED! http://www.nutsonline.com/jericho), Verizon can be convinced to do what’s right.

Steve
#32. August 11th, 2007, at 9:27 AM.

I purchased my 8830 after reading an early Verizon add that claimed it provided GPS. I then checked the BB web page that claimed that the devise provided this capability. The Verizon sales rep did not tell me that it was disabled. The GPS feature is one of the primary reasons I purchased this device and extended my contract (I switched from a different BB Verizon device). I am very angry about this! I have an attorney friend that I discussed this with, and he told me that this false and misleading practice is a violation of certain laws, and he could easily get me out my Verizon contract. “He said “slam Dunk”! Maybe someone could lead a significant class action threat to terminate several thousand Verizon contracts, I am sure that would get their attention.

JAC
#33. August 24th, 2007, at 4:30 PM.

I recommend that folks reading this post send an email to Stephen Schwed (Stephen.Schwed@verizonwireless.com) as one of the posts above has done. This will funnel the message into their consumer relations area and perhaps gain more attention. Doesn’t guarantee results, but can’t hurt. I’m extremely frustrated that VZW has chosen this path… we have dozens of users whom we just provided 8830’s, all of whom were expecting full hardware functionality.

scottDb
#34. August 25th, 2007, at 12:02 AM.

does anyone know if there is a software download yet able to unlock the gps on a verizon bb 8830
i figure that some people already cracked the iphone, how come they haven’t figured out this gps thing yet

leonardo
#35. August 26th, 2007, at 8:18 AM.

I received my bb8830 from Sprint a week ago, and the GPS feature is not locked. It came preloaded with a Maps program (Tele Atlas) that works pretty good and I was able to install Goggle Maps as well.

ollie
#36. August 26th, 2007, at 1:22 PM.

I was looking at the 8830 and my wife picked one up for me yesterday (verizon). They have been our carriers for years.

Amazed to find out the GPS not working. I was in a mall store a week ago and am 99% sure the card showing the phone features included GPS.

GPS was the selling point for me. I have a handheld PDA and a bluetooth GPS. I love having GPS when I need it and was looking forward to dumping a few of my devices.

I will return the phone today.

JAC
#37. August 27th, 2007, at 11:14 AM.

Here’s the response I received from my Verizon rep today:

The GPS service that is native to the Global BlackBerry does not have the level of security, protection or performance that Verizon Wireless requires (security precautions are important to prevent unintended use or misuse of location data). From a performance perspective, Verizon Wireless expects its network assisted approach to provide more accurate and faster location information, and better performance indoors and in dense urban areas. Verizon Wireless is very careful to only advertise the features and services available on the devices it sells to ensure that customers get what they want and expect when they purchase a new device. None of the Verizon Wireless advertising on this device referenced mapping tools. Any service offered by Verizon Wireless must pass testing and have the necessary security to protect customers from unintended identification. The current GPS service does not currently meet our security requirements.

Verizon Wireless is currently modifying its own location based mapping service, VZ Navigator, for the BlackBerry 8830. The plan is for VZ Navigator and certain third party GPS applications to be available for the BlackBerry 8830 this year. The Blackberry is currently GPS capable to support Enhanced 911 Phase 2 automatic location identification.

—
Summary: Verizon has a canned response for anyone who asks about the GPS functionality being disabled. The response is clearly intended for an audience that doesn’t understand how GPS actually works (ie, someone who assumes they have to pay for GPS functionality / assume it relies upon cellular info to calculate location).

Dan
#38. August 27th, 2007, at 1:22 PM.

simple. when they offer GPS for $10 per month. No one sign up.

elliot stern
#39. September 9th, 2007, at 6:38 PM.

I have written to Mr. schwed and have advised him that my 2 cell phones and 1 broadband for my computer, as well as DSL at home, and the Blackberry 8830 I have just ordered are all in the path of being canceled. I explained that even though I consider the coverage to be the best, I shall step backwards a bit and go to Sprint because the have not disabled features I am paying for.

I hope he sends a reply. I am not sure what difference my note will make. Probably none, but the few hundred dollars a month I spend on Verizon can easily be moved to another provider.

Tom
#40. September 10th, 2007, at 1:57 PM.

I am also very discouraged with Verizon for disabling this feature. It makes absolutely no sense. Any word on when the VZNavigator will be released for the 8830? I heard that if you buy an external bluetooth GPS system for Verizon’s 8830, then the Maps and Google Maps navigation software will work. Is this true? This is the type of product I’m speaking of:

http://www.arkon.com/gps.php

“BT339 : Arkon Bluetooth GPS Receiver with SiRFstarIII™ Chipset”

Only runs about 80 bucks - not too bad if you REALLY want GPS for your Blackberry 8830. Although it’s still nuts that we don’t get this free.

ANY INPUT/RESPONSES WOULD BE APPRECIATED

Richard Wessels
#41. September 10th, 2007, at 3:54 PM.

I hope that people take some time to really complain about this. I plan to send letters to the FCC, FTC, and SEC (because shareholders should know how Verizon is screwing customers too). I encourage all others to do the same. While you are at it, send one to the BBB in your area, maybe a few percentage points drop in their rateing there would get their attention.

Considering how many law professionals use BB’s on a daily basis, I hope that one of them gets the idea that they can launch a class action against VZW and get this resolved or the money for the devices refunded. Something like this could make for some very bad press for VZW if we just tried.

JAC
#42. September 10th, 2007, at 8:15 PM.

Tom,

Not likely that the external device would work. The 8830 does have bluetooth support, but profiles are only intended for common cell phone bluetooth devices (headset, handsfree, file transfers). Most bluetooth gps receivers use a serial profile/connection which I am pretty certain the 8830 doesn’t support. (or at least not obviously). Sad that anyone should have to pay a cent for another piece of hardware when the 8830 has the gps receiver built in….

PS to all: never received a response from Stephen Schwed…. I did get a return receipt on my email, so someone on his side at least opened it. Sent a second email today, although I doubt I will hear back….

=============

Tom
#40. September 10th, 2007, at 1:57 PM.

I am also very discouraged with Verizon for disabling this feature. It makes absolutely no sense. Any word on when the VZNavigator will be released for the 8830? I heard that if you buy an external bluetooth GPS system for Verizon’s 8830, then the Maps and Google Maps navigation software will work. Is this true? This is the type of product I’m speaking of:

http://www.arkon.com/gps.php

“BT339 : Arkon Bluetooth GPS Receiver with SiRFstarIII™ Chipset”

Only runs about 80 bucks - not too bad if you REALLY want GPS for your Blackberry 8830. Although it’s still nuts that we don’t get this free.

ANY INPUT/RESPONSES WOULD BE APPRECIATED

Tom
#43. September 10th, 2007, at 11:23 PM.

Thanks for the response, although I think you are incorrect. I did some more research, and according to the people on this message board: an external GPS reciever WILL work on the Verizon 8830.

http://forums.crackberry.com/f61/gps-verizon-8830-update-1279/index18.html

There’s a quality one on sale for 40 bucks linked on the forum. It’s a start!

Gerry
#44. September 11th, 2007, at 11:54 AM.

First off FOR HEAVENS SAKE DO NOT BUY THIS PHONE FROM VERIZON!!! I was told by Verizon Sales that the GPS was fully functional, and then a few days later found it had been disabled. This will be my last Verizon contract( 4 phones) as I intend to ditch both the disappointing crippled Blacberry 8830, and Verizon’s “service”. My next phone will be an IPHONE as at least they do what Apple says they will do. Verizon AND RIM have lost me as a customer, and I am considering just paying the $175 to escape from this sham…..I hate being ripped off, and that is exactly what has happened.

Vijay
#45. September 22nd, 2007, at 3:02 PM.

I also recently bought an 8830 and am disappointed about not being able to use the GPS capability. Several of the comments in this forum are targeting the anger (and encouraging others to target their anger) at the powerless Verizon customer service people. The decisions are made deep inside the company by senior people who own revenue numbers for lines of business. The only way to get their attention (as well as the attention of regulatory bodies like another poster here suggested) is to show aggregated consumer clout. Somebody has to start an Internet based signature campaign, collect tens of thousands of on-line signatures and then direct that information to Verizon and the media. Getting media attention will automatically attract consumer groups’ attention because the people in those groups like to see their names in print and faces on TV.

In particular, if there is an anti-trust angle to Verizon’s behavior, getting the Justice Department’s attention to this issue will really shake things up.

Somebody suggested RIM should get involved. RIM won’t fight this battle with Verizon. Unlike Apple which as a new entrant had nothing to lose when it entered into discussions with the carriers, RIM probably gets 20-30% of its business from Verizon. Not something they will want to mess with.

I hope one of you will start a signature campaign

Bayne Schulstad
#46. September 26th, 2007, at 9:13 AM.

If some kid can hack the iPhone, why can’t someone hack the Verizon phones. Maybe he could make a couple of bucks making a lot of people happy with un-crippled Verizon blackberrys.

Talion
#47. September 28th, 2007, at 3:28 PM.

8830 GPS won’t work in Europe.

I did a google search and came up with this from: evdoinfo.com/content/view/2051/64/ and last updated 15 August 2007.

Quoting: “Q – Does GPS work internationally?
A – No, the GPS chipset on the 8830 is disabled when the device is in GSM/GPRS mode due to Qualcomm requirement.”

The only mention of a tie between GPS and CDMA in Blackberry’s own user manual is:

Quoting: “About assisted GPS support
Your BlackBerry® device is designed to support assisted GPS when your device is connected to a CDMA network. If you make an emergency call or your device is in Emergency Callback Mode, an emergency operator might be able to use assisted GPS technology to estimate your location.”

I have been unable to find any info on Blackberry’s website or their user manual that the 8830’s GPS will not work in Europe. In point of fact, in a phone conversation with a local Alltel/Blackberry salesperson he indicated that he too believed that the 8830 GPS would work in Europe. Seems like a deceptive business practise on Blackberry’s part to me.

David B
#48. September 28th, 2007, at 6:26 PM.

Bayne Schulstad said:
“If some kid can hack the iPhone, why can’t someone hack the Verizon phones.”
You see where all those hacked iPhone’s are now becoming inoperable? And Apple has said the hacks void the warranty?

I’d like my 8830’s GPS hacked to become operable, but NOT at the expense of it bricking or voiding the warranty.

Steve G
#50. October 11th, 2007, at 11:31 AM.

Here’s an email I received from Verizon on the issue.
Verizon’s stance is I could be tracked. (Sure).
But just like the v710 bluetooth issue, I would bet its so Verizon can make extra money $15 a month on top of the voice and the data plan.
Verizon and Verizon wireless never really diverged.
Since I am locked into the Verizon Wireless contract, I will instead cancel any Verizon service (land-line only).
I recommend others upset with this issue do the same. Money talks.

At Verizon Wireless we value the security and privacy of our subscriber data and user information and we have taken this into account in the development of our location based services offerings. To alleviate concerns regarding access to data by malicious applications and misuse of location information, Verizon Wireless’ location based services utilize a solution that requires each location request to be authenticated and accepted prior to a user’s location being obtained through the network and used by authorized applications.

Verizon Wireless is aggressively working to expand our suite of location based services offerings in a way that does not compromise our dedication to privacy and security yet offers value and flexibility to our customers

Robert Bustamante
Verizon Wireless
WDTS Supervisor
Albuquerque, NM

Stephen
#51. October 12th, 2007, at 1:06 AM.

I’m, I suppose, what you would call a ‘BlackBerry Power User.’ I use my BlackBerry for Email, Web Browsing, Mapping, Address Lookup, etc.

What I bought my BB 8830 for, originally, was for a sport called Geocaching (www.geocaching.com/faq) I thought I could use the integrated GPS for finding my caches and then using the integrated web browser for logging them on the geocaching.com web site. Alas, to my disappointment, I found out that the on-board gps unit is firmware hacked at a very low level. Some mapping applications recognize the hardware, but don’t receive a signal from the gps chipset.

I have a few problems with Verizon’s stance on the 8830 GPS issue, and I’d like to outline them here:

1. Their stance on security: What element of “you’re not any more or less secure than any other cellular network” don’t they understand? Every other carrier has gps-enabled phones, including–guess who?–Verizon! Their regular phones with VZ Navigator use their network for GPS positioning and probably use A-GPS (Assisted GPS, ie, Cell Tower Assist+GPS) to provide the turn-by-turn directions they need.

2. Their concern with BlackBerry Security, if any: BlackBerry has one of the most reknowned, bone-solid crypto stacks in the business. IF AES encryption capability isn’t enough for them, I don’t know what is. What I don’t get is how someone would be able to triangulate using the GPS system on the phone in any more rabid a fashion than not, just using the cell towers. Granted, this type of thing requires a bit of know-how, especially if some dishonest sort is using cell networks to find people with their phones turned on, but this has been around for years and, aside from some movies using hollywood license to spread doom and gloom about the technology, methinks tht Verizon doth worry too much. I just don’t think it’s that much of an issue for the average user.

3. The GPS portion that users want is the stand-alone segment of the GPS stack. Users don’t give a rip about the A-GPS part of the system. Keep the tower-assist part turned off if Verizon is that concerned. We just want to be able to receive our GPS satellite signals and use whatever mapping program we want with the unit’s capabilities for which we paid.

4. GPS Sentence Data–the signals coming from the 8830’s GPS Chipset–should be one format, and one format only: NMEA 0183 Compliant! This is the DeFacto Standard for on-board, GPS electronic signal data in use by every manufacturer in the industry. If Qualcomm, Verizon, and RIM would just stick to standards, there wouldn’t be any problems with third-party mapping and GPS applications working with this phone. Granted, only Verizon crippled the thing, not the other two companies.

5. Owners of the Verizon BlackBerry 8830 *do need to*–and I can’t stress this enough–continue to show our distaste for their engineers messing around with native features on phones that we buy. This is my first experience with them and I wish to politely state that, “ahem! we are not amused!”

Warm regards,
Stephen

Steve G
#52. October 16th, 2007, at 5:28 PM.

Stephen (#51)
What Verizon is trying to say is that Blackberry maps and Google maps need my GPS location (from my GPS chip). The interaction between the mapping data download via the internet to my IP address is the security issue.
So, someone would have to have my IP address of my phone, and hack the blackberry download of mapping data (or upload of my GPS location).
Then, the bad guys could track me via the Internet.
I am not worried about this, and would clearly opt-in to a waiver.
Why does ATT and Sprint allow this horrible security hole?

Still canceling all my Verizon and VerizonWireless when I get a chance. The Verizon plans have no contract, so we can all cancel anytime.

Baba Bouy
#53. October 24th, 2007, at 7:12 AM.

It’s all about the stock price, shareholders and revenues. What’s interesting is the amount of people that have nothing better to do than read threads.

olddude
#54. October 26th, 2007, at 2:42 AM.

Was just in Europe (UK & NL) in September. While the phone worked flawlessly,
the GPS was still a no go…. Actually spent a fair amount of time (airport delays)
specifically trying …

John O
#55. November 1st, 2007, at 10:12 PM.

Plain old BS… Verizon, wake up… how about competing for business fairly, instead of take away something that was given to us free of charge from the manufacturer, and then charging us to get it back. Freedom of choice, good service & fairness, is what your best consumers appreciate & ultimately patronize.

Offer a great network, with all the freedoms to go along with it & you won’t have to stoop to holding hardware ransom, just to make a buck. Remember the phrase… penny wise & pound foolish. You’ll be a great deal more profitable in the long run by giving the consumer what the want, and in the case of the Blackberry, what the already own. Come on Verizon… surprise us all… do the right thing, give us back our GPS and stop making BS excuses about security risks.

You’ve got a great network… if you start treating your customers with the same importance, nobody could compete with you.

N
#56. November 5th, 2007, at 2:36 PM.

Just got my new 8830 as a work phone. Am not surprised VZW is still at it’s games. Had a Moto 815 before and fought with the locked out BT obex and ringtones. I would never go with VZW for a personal phone. I use a different provider with full open phones (RZR) and they use VZW network for extended coverage. Best of both worlds. Full phones with VZW’s coverage. Even if Verizon changes their tatics, I will not use them for personal because other companies are out there that know what customer service is. If I could only influence our enterprise choices against VZW (10,000+ handsets).

Alex M.
#57. November 10th, 2007, at 12:54 PM.

Sounds like it’s time for another class action lawsuit–false advertising. That’s what happened last time Verizon Wireless pulled this with the Bluetooth and eventually they fixed it.

Expect them to respond that E911 works, but that is bogus when it was already out that the 8830 had full GPS, not just AGPS.

Was anyone apart of the last Verizon Class? Who did they use?

Jason B.
#58. November 13th, 2007, at 11:09 AM.

I just got off the phone with verizon tech support myself after I bought the phone and the guy there sold me the VZNavigator package….

The tech support guy and I spent about an hour on the phone and I was informed that first, support is not available yet. Second, a blackberry desktop software updated, version 4.6, is currently in beta stages at VZW and should be released by the end of the year at the latest.

Currently that version of the software is floating around in house at VZW and GPS will be enabled on the 8830’s shortly.

Fortunately he disabled my VZNavigator subscription for now, so I don’t have to pay the $10 a month for something I can’t use yet.

But they are telling people at the counter that the 8830’s are GPS enabled and working, just they still have yet to release the v4.6 software update!

mary
#59. November 13th, 2007, at 11:04 PM.

I find the NMEA bluetooth device I have works just fine with the Blackberry - and my laptop. I can use google maps with the bluetooth and even the BB built in map software works just fine. It is annoying to have to bring along my device but it does fit on a lanyard when I walk places and I bought a soapdish that sticks to my windshield that holds the small device as well for car travel. If I can use the software this way then why does Verizon turn off a simple chip that only captures lat long points. It’s the software that can cause problems. If Verizon actually developed a software program that worked better than Google Maps then I’d consider buying it. It is nice being able to type in google maps a store (Walmart or Starbucks) and get a list of nearby locations!!

Chris
#60. November 15th, 2007, at 9:56 PM.

I continue to be amazed by the consumers of the 8830 and VZW. Did you not do your research before you bought the device or service? If you were like me, at the end of a contract term and looking for an upgraded system for productivity. Then maybe you should have looked at what services and software were available before you purchased another device and entered into another contract. This thread alone started in July. Other boards have similar information available. Be an informaed consumer. Just because RIM put the GPS into our 8830 doesn’t mean VZW has to sell it activated. And just so you know. I use GPS in my automobile for directions, and on the golf course for yardage, both need to be outside to work. The car is not outside. The GPS receiver needs to have line of sight unobstructed to the GPS satelites. I use the productivity parts of my BB. The phone, email, SMS. It’s all I can do to keep it doing that full time.

The bottom line is if you’re not happy go somewhere else for your buisness and stop compaining.

James Steele
#61. November 20th, 2007, at 1:01 PM.

Ok here is why I do NOT beleive that it is ok for this to be disabled. If you bought a car, and this car cam with headlights for the manufacture. Then, those headlights are disabled by the dealership. Now the dealership will allow you to use the headlights that you paid for aslong as you give the $10 per month. see you paid for the headlights when you bought the car. You are the sole owner of that car. The electricity to run the headlights does not come in anyway from the dealership. How can the dealer stop you from using the lights?

It is the same thing with the GPS. Blackberry built in the GPS, You bought the Phone With The GPS. You own that phone and if someone steals the phone you are out not VZW. GPS does not use VZW Sats. Nor thier Cell Towers. Now they want to charge you to use this feature.

If the Dealership did this you would see class action lawsuits.

Rbhenry
#62. November 30th, 2007, at 2:10 AM.

I have the same complaint with the 8830. On usage in Europe, I was just in italy and all of my business partners have 8830’s and they have full GPS funtionality. One we get Verizon to allow free GPS access, go to http://www.nav4all.com and get thier software, free until 2010. It works worldwide. The friends from italy use it here in the states when they come here and it works great.

I have filed complaints to the FTC, FCC and BBB. Everyone should do the same so someone will take action. Thse posts don’t do anything to verizon, it just allows us to vent.

A.MELENDEZ
#63. December 7th, 2007, at 1:50 PM.

I HAVE BEEN A VERIZON CUSTOMER FOR MANY YEARS. I RECENTLY TALKED TO REP. ABOUT UPGRADING TO A BLACKBERRY 8830. MY WIFE AND I ARE GOING TO BE IN EUROPE FOR ABOUT 30 DAYS. WHAT APPEALED TO ME WAS BEING ABLE TO USE THE GPS NAV. ON OUR RENTAL CAR. ANOTHER FACTOR WAS BEING ABLE TO PHONE HOME TO TALK TO RELATIVES IN THE STATES. I’M GLAD I HAVE FOUND OUT ABOUT THE GPS BEING BLOCKED ON THIS DEVICE BEFORE I BOUGHT IT.
I’M DISAPPOINTED THAT VERIZON WOULD DO THIS TO THEIR CUSTOMERS WHEN BB OFFERS THIS GPS ITEM IN THEIR DEVICE. I’M NOW THINKING ABOUT WAITING TILL THEY CHANGE THEIR POLICY OR SWITCHING TO ANOTHER CARRIER SUCH AS AT&T OR SPRINT.

Kevin C
#64. January 9th, 2008, at 1:56 PM.

Response from Verizon when I inquired when a patch will be release to enable GPS, not only to VZ Navigator?

“Thank you for contacting our Verizon Wireless website. We are happy to assist you with your question relating to the GPS service on the Blackberry 8830.

Verizon Wireless is committed to providing the very latest in products and services. At this time, we are unable to state if or when a patch to enable GPS will be available for the Blackberry 8830. The GPS service that is native to the Global BlackBerry does not have the level of security, protection or performance that Verizon Wireless requires (security precautions are important to prevent unintended use or misuse of location data).

If you have further questions or concerns, please write to us again through http://www.VerizonWireless.com. We appreciate your business and thank you for choosing Verizon Wireless.”

Paul T
#65. January 10th, 2008, at 5:16 PM.

The GPS function is also blocked on the VZW BB8130!!!

Pls let me know two things:

1) where can I sign up for the class action lawsuit

2) Website to unlock the GPS code

Nick
#66. January 28th, 2008, at 10:01 AM.

You can file a complaint with the FTC:
https://rn.ftc.gov/pls/dod/wsolcq.startup?Z_ORG_CODE=PU01

Paul T
#67. January 30th, 2008, at 5:14 PM.

Following lawsuit was filed against VZW for “bait and switch”!

http://news.findlaw.com/andrews/bt/tel/20071210/20071210_wyatt.html

B.Faucher
#68. February 2nd, 2008, at 4:17 PM.

Verizon’s crippling of the autonomous GPS in my 8830 has caused a very negative public relations perception with that company. You can be sure that I will strongly consider switching carriers at my upcoming contract renewal time!!

Paul T
#69. March 18th, 2008, at 8:25 PM.

Pls note there is a class action lawsuit filled on this subject.
Following webpage has an embedded url with the filling content,

http://www.cyberlawonline.com/cyberlawg/general-interest/suit-challenges-verizon-on-blackberry-gps.html

Brian
#70. April 5th, 2008, at 1:55 AM.

The tax payer’s paid for the GPS system that covers the USA, I bought an Alltel 8830 and it works just like Blackberry built it to.
I have Verizon cell phones but will not buy there messed up BB 8830 or the Curve from them

Brian
#71. April 6th, 2008, at 12:33 PM.

OH has anyone noticed that VZW 8830 GPS does not work when you don’t have a cell tower!! but on ones with the built in GPS it still works, plus once you get a new phone your old BB can still be used as a stand alone GPS provided you have maps

DavidB
#72. April 8th, 2008, at 2:27 PM.

@Brian:
Dunno about you, but MY VZW 8830 GPS doesn’t work AT ALL, regardless of cell tower or not. I’m not paying them $10/month for VZNavigator service. UNLESS someone can say for sure that paying the $10/month will also make the internal GPS available to other apps (BB Maps, Google Maps, the various golf tracking apps, etc.)????

Hank
#73. April 8th, 2008, at 6:57 PM.

I sent a letter to VZW Customer Care inquiring as to if they had any plans to enable the built-in GPS support in the 8830. I got this reply:

“On behalf of Verizon Wireless, I sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this equipment matter may have caused. You have been a valued customer for several years. Let me assure you, Verizon Wireless does not engage in fasle advertising and our official doctrine is one of clear customer disclosure.”

…”The GPS locator chip, which is present in all wireless phones we currently sell (with the exception of the BlackBerry 6750), is used solely for tracking purposes by Emergency 911 Services and does not function like a typical GPS device.”

While the reply sidesteps my question with generalities and obvious corporate matra, it appears that what I’m supposed to believe is that Verizon cannot enable the GPS features in the phone because they don’t exist.

Remindes me of a line in one of Sting’s songs “everyone spoke the truth but all we heard were lies.” It applies so well to “our official doctrine is one of clear customer disclosure.”

BrandonW
#74. April 15th, 2008, at 3:45 PM.

I have an 8830 from Verizon and an 8830 from Alltel. The Verizon is nearly 2 years old and the Alltel is one week old. The GPS on the verizon is (of course) disabled. The GPS on the Alltel works great with the blackberry maps program. It’s slow to aquire satellites but once it does it stays locked pretty well. I downloaded free trial of garmin mobile and it works much better than the blackberry maps program but costs $99/year for a subscription.

Here’s the part that makes me love Verizon even more: If you buy the Garmin Mobile program for the Verizon 8830, you also need to buy an external GPS because Verizon has locked the internal GPS. Apparantly even Garmin can’t get the GPS unlocked on the Verizon.

Steve Goldsby
#75. April 29th, 2008, at 9:32 PM.

I am similarly upset with Verizon. I’m tired of being nickel and dimed to death at every turn. They have a strong network, but holding me hostage and hating me as a customer has me to the point of picking ANY OTHER provider just to make a point. See http://steveoneverything.blogspot.com/2008/04/why-does-verizon-hate-its-customers.html

John Stoutmare
#76. May 11th, 2008, at 3:07 PM.

We have a coporate account of 200 blackberry users. Hope Verizon is listening because after reading this article I have instructed our Telecom team to look at alternatives. We have a huge sales team and the GPS feature would make a great differnce for them when they travel. Thank you for a great article.
J.Stoutmare

Lugly
#77. May 15th, 2008, at 9:00 PM.

Verizon VZ Nav is not GPS. IT uses triangulation of cell sites. If you have VZ Nav and you are lost in the desert or moutnians, forget about using it to find your way.

Jeff
#78. May 16th, 2008, at 3:41 PM.

To Stephen the Geocacher: Maybe we should publicize this on Geocaching.com. It was one of the reasons I bought this phone, too.

popsmusix
#79. May 19th, 2008, at 4:05 PM.

There is a petition you can sign asking Verizon to unlock the GPS feature. http://www.petitiononline.com/vzwgps/petition.html
You will have to cut and past into your web broswer.

popsmusix
#80. May 19th, 2008, at 4:05 PM.

There is a petition you can sign asking Verizon to unlock the GPS feature. http://www.petitiononline.com/vzwgps/petition.html
You will have to cut and past into your web browser.

Dan
#81. May 30th, 2008, at 10:23 PM.

I’ve been looking at this subject for months now. I’ve been absolutely amazed as to why Verizon hasn’t “joined the game” as many of the larger cell providers have. Via a web search, I’ve been only been able to find one CDMA network phone (same network Verizon/Sprint uses) with a Sirf III chipset, and you can’t even get it in the states? So the guarantee of it working is minimal.

Looking at GSM phones, I’ve found phones into the 100’s that contain unlocked AGPS chipset variables and integrated combinations (AGPS/Sirf III) completely unlocked.

Why is Verizon doing this? Like the many that have stated above, they simply want to charge. The design/updating cost for the VZNavigator service isn’t a cheap one. And like hell if they are going to give it away for free, or allow you to make your own GPS software installation choices i.e. TomTom, IGO Myway, Garmin XT mobil, etc.

In regards to the comment about VZNavigator not working in area’s without cell sites, It’s not only that you can’t use VZNavigator in no cell site area’s, it’s also the fact it’s sending “pings” or location verification to the network (using YOUR minutes) to verify accurate triangulation - your location. So yes, if you get lost in the desert using VZNavigator, you better just find yourself a cactus god, and give your phone to it as homage, because you’re gona die!

In regards to the other individual’s company having 100 blackberries, and will reconsider Verizon’s business practices, I solute you!! It’s not until actions like this get sent, will things start to change!

On a side note, my contract ends with Verizon this July…AT&T will be my next provider. HTC Diamond Touch, ASUS P550, Glofiish 650 (700,800,810) and the the mass offered via GSM unlocked, Unsuppressed GPS, here I come!!!

steve
#82. June 5th, 2008, at 4:00 PM.

Well, I didn’t even get the system standard crap, just that it is know that we block our phones to sell our servie… take it up the rear VZW customers…
——————————————————————————–
From: Amanda.Overturf@VerizonWireless.com [mailto:Amanda.Overturf@VerizonWireless.com]
Sent: Thu 05-Jun-08 3:51 PM
To: Steve
Subject: RE: Contact info

Steve,

The GPS still works and in compliant with wireless E911, which is required by law. We simply block the use of a 3rd party application because we provide navigation service for the device.

This is all the information that I have available to me.

Mandy

steve
#83. June 6th, 2008, at 9:24 AM.

Well, I received this after some other communication… Possibily good news…

Steve,

I was able to have some additional information sent to me. At this time there are several 3rd party applications for navigation that are being tested for the 8830 and should be available later this year. It has always been Verizon’s approach to test programs and software to make sure the security and performance meets our standards because even though the application is not owned by Verizon Wireless the handset and it’s performance are associated with Verizon Wireless. The BlackBerry 8830 World Edition Smartphone is currently GPS capable to support Enhanced 911 Phase 2 automatic location identification.

I have asked that when the additional applications are available for the Project Manager to reach out to me so that I can let you know.

I hope this answered your questions.
Mandy

bbbitter
#84. June 10th, 2008, at 9:32 AM.

I am a corporate Blackberry 8830 user. My company owns somewhere around 100 of these devices. All of them have the internal GPS disabled as expected. Now what I find interesting is that if I were to go shop for a phone today, I could find the exact same phone with GPS enabled along with getting unlimited data, phone, email & text for a price far cheaper than what Verizon offers. Disabling functions and charging more money for service is the sign of a macro style company that simply does not care. Several years ago when I was with Sprint for my personal cell phone, I was displeased with customer support as well as the features provided to me with my phone so I left. Apparently I was not the only one. If you do a little research as to the health of Sprint these days, you’ll find that the company is cleaning house and beginning to offer plans that are extremely competitive. Verizon should learn from the experiences of other large companies and fix these problems before they turn into bigger problems. The only problem with this is that the upper crust of Verizon does not care because when the customer revolt puts the company into turmoil, they will all be gone with their nice fat pensions. This behavior is consistent with any privately run utility.

On another note, the survey site posted above seems to be a futile effort. If every person who singed that survey (myself included) left Verizon, the result in Verizon lost revenue would be somewhere around $2-$3 million. …….small potatoes. Until that number encompasses a significant portion of the 60 million+ subscribers, there will be no change to Verizon’s company policies. Now that they have swallowed up Alltel, expect it to get worse before it gets better.

I know one thing for sure. Seeing how Verizon woks through my corporate blackberry 8830, I will definitely not be choosing them when my personal cell phone account expires next month.

Bob
#85. June 25th, 2008, at 5:08 PM.

Of course this isn’t the desired solution to the problem, but surely someone out there has figured out a way to crack or bypass the Verizon block on the GPS.
If anyone knows any info on this, please let us all know.

Scott Williams
#86. July 4th, 2008, at 11:21 AM.

8830 “World Edition” My Ass …

I have never been more irritated by any consumer products company than I have by THIS cellular provider! I was told by the Regional Sales manager of he Southeast region of Verizon that Google Maps was fully functional on the 8830 … HE DID NOT EVEN KNOW HOW SCREWED UP HIS COMPANY IS …

Oh yea, and as for the “world edition” functionality, DO NOT try to use this phone outside the continental US. I am spending time in Edmonton Canada and the VZ Navigator does not work in Canada!!!

Upon confronting the Global Representative, he had to “research the issue” asd he was not sure of the functionality! Two days later he did get back to me only to say “there is nothing to be done, VZ Navigator does not work outside the United States, and Blackberry Maps GPS functionality cannot be unlocked to be functional”… That is a LOAD OF BS because T-Mobile allows BB Maps for FREE and it works EVERYWHERE — I had it in London and it worked PERFECTLY on the T-Mobile network!

I am leaving Verizon just as soon as I can figure out which providers are less focused on screwing their customers.

Bob
#87. July 9th, 2008, at 8:14 PM.

I urge everyone to file a complaint with the better business bureau. I did, and I got a stupid form letter in the mail with a BS response from Verizon, but if we do enough, maybe the’ll take notice and fix this issue.

DavidB
#88. July 10th, 2008, at 5:08 PM.

There is news of a class action lawsuit regarding Verizon disabling the GPS even though they marketed the phone with “built-in GPS” and made no caveats regarding it’s use. No mention that extra software is required, no mention that an extra fee is required, no mention that the software that comes on the device as supplied by Verizon won’t function with the “built-in GPS”. There is a class action suit filed in November 2007 in US District Court. The BAD news though is that the first action regarding the suit isn’t until January 2009.

Frak
#90. August 9th, 2008, at 11:50 AM.

I got VZW to give me both a 3 year Navigator credit and refund the price of my 8130 over this issue. When I bought it, they said nothing in their marketing materials about being forced to use their app and only thier app.

Btw, even with the free Navigator now.. I don’t use it. Why? because it sucks. Slow, buggy, a memory hog (and leak) and a poor interface. You’re better off spending that $10/mo on a tom-tom device - they work better and interact better.

I also got that same nonsense reply at first about “we carefully test all applications to ensure your safety, blah, blah, blah and 3rd party apps can give access to intruders, etc..” I told them “umm, isn’t VZ navigator a 3rd party app? the phone is made by RIMM and they include a Maps program designed for the phone.

Tbone
#91. August 19th, 2008, at 1:18 PM.

I agree with a lot of what has been said here. I recently had purchased the new iPhone and the GPS was the coolest feature it had, for me. Unfortunately, AT&T is not even comparable to Verizon in New England. My 25 minute trip in to the office I dropped the same caller 4 times with AT&T, which was repeatable, but only 1 time with Verizon. It pains me so but first and foremost I need to be able to stay on a call with business customer etc. I would be happy to pay more to have true GPS functionality and it is certainly Verizon’s right disable it and require more money to enable it but to offer a replacement program that is virtually unusable is incredibly painful. Still, I have no other options. What I don’t completely understand is that I believe Sprint is also CDMA so shouldn’t it have roughly the same signal as Verizon? Yet, Verizon in my area has far fewer dropped calls. So, I am holding out for the BB Storm and am hoping by some miracle that Verizon decides to unlock the GPS. I know, I am only setting myself up for disappointment. Bottom line Verizon wins. They have the best service by far in my area and that trumps everything else especially when using it as a business phone.

MK
#92. September 11th, 2008, at 3:03 PM.

I just want to say you all are have covered everything. I am also a Verizon customer very pissed that I have to purchase another gadget to get involved with Geocache. Come on we paid for these phones so why can’t we pay someone else for there GPS capability. I also hate Navigator, lag time & most locations even a locat theatre not listed. Yes, I did my share of updates. Sorry for all of us who got suckered into false advertisement.